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244 The Collected Writings of Michael Snow worked with, and because also of Jonas Mekas's column in The Village Voice, we discovered "Underground" film as well as the "Uptown" galleries. There was at that time and still is a separation of communities between those involved in the painting and sculpture world in whatever capacity - artist, dealer, critic, collector - and those involved in experimental film. Screenings at the Film-Makers' Cinematheque seemed to rarely include in the audiences representatives from the painting and sculpture world. That world had glamour, money, publicity, power but the avant-garde film scene was poor; everybody was poor and what's more any ambition that anyone had could only be in relation to his or her work. There was no career incentive other than the work and the interest of the twenty or thirty regulars at the Cinematheque. There was little hope of the films being seen elsewhere and Jonas's wonderful column was the criticism and the publicity.My impression is that the painting and sculpture world somewhat looked down on the "underground" scene as grungy and inbred. I recall a letter to The Village Voice by Ivan Karp saying things to that effect. Which is a little strange because the only time that attendance changed was when Andy Warhol showed at the Cinematheque and Karp was at that time with Leo Castelli's Gallery, of which Warhol was a member. At any rate the audiences on those occasions were large and had lots of what was considered glamour at the time and seemed to consist of some people at least whom one did see at many galleries but who never reappeared for other screenings at the Cinematheque. Someone else besides Joyce and me who went to most of the shows and most of the Cinematheque screenings was Hollis. I remember finding him rather mysterious. Everybody who was involved in the painting and sculpture world that I was starting to meet seemed to have some functional interest in it. Hollis knew many of the finest painters and sculptors, attended all the exhibitions but wasn't in any of the prescribed categories. After we had met, and decidedly liked each other I was still a little puzzled. I admit that my puzzlement now seems puzzling. It seemed that he made his living working in photography labs and that he was a photographer. However, it was a long time, after many visits to his loft, before I ever saw a photograph. He had a wellequipped dark room but the impression I had then was that it was never used. He owned sculpture by Carl Andre, which was the first I'd seen by him and I was very impressed. I was a painter, sculptor, musician,filmmaker then, and I kept on worrying about having to choose between them all and concentrate on one. Part of our congeniality then might have been shared indecision. We met often and talked, drank, smoked and etc. We talked about films partly because we were often seeing the same things, but for a while I didn't realize that he wanted to make films. I was a little surprised when he started working on his first films, which were Manual of Arms, Information and Process Red, all done in 1966. Putting it that way is more than a bit inaccurate because Manual of Arms consists of portrait-like sequences of various friends including Joyce and myself, so that we were all already participants. Yes, my surprise was soon dispelled, but from the first time I saw Hollis and during the first two years I knew him, I felt that he was someone who was in but uniquely apart from the working art world, and that was one of the things that was attractive about him. I was immediately impressed with his first films and, of course, he revealed himself as the wonderful artist that he was, in addition to the incredible mind and voice that I already knew. Joyce Wieland made her first two films using supered words in 1967. Hollis admired On Hollis Frampton 245 them and I know they returned his mind to trying to work with imaged words again as he had in earlier photographs. I'd like to return to discussing his storytelling side. In comparison to his talk, his use of this narrative talent in his films is quite cool. Perhaps his 1972 film Poetic Justice is his most overtly quote "narrative" unquote. Each shot of...


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