When These Things Begin
Conversations with Michel Treguer
Publication Year: 2014
Published by: Michigan State University Press
Title Page, About the Series, Copyright
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René Girard is truly an extraordinary character. He was born in 1923 in Avignon, France, but since 1947 he has lived in the United States, where he met his wife and taught for many years at Stanford University. The title of his first book—Mensonge romantique et vérité romanesque (1961), “Romantic Lie and Novelistic Truth,” or, as the English edition...
Chapter 1. A First Overview: Here and Now
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MICHEL TREGUER: René, even though it may not be a very logical starting point, before laying out your thought in a more organized way, I would like to begin here and now, in the present moment in which our lives are immersed, and which, for some time now, we have seen unfurling before our eyes like a film in fast-forward. I want to do this in order to give the reader a glimpse of...
Chapter 2. Mimetic Desire: Shakespeare rather than Plato
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MT: At the beginning of your thesis there was the word “mimetic.” Can you
tell us again how it should be understood?
RG: Human relations are subject to conflict: whether we’re talking about marriage, friendship, professional relationships, issues with neighbors or matters of national unity, human relations are always under...
Chapter 3. The Mimetic Crisis: Sacrificial Worlds
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MT: Let’s go back to the formation of societies. We were talking about the
moment when the escalation of the mimetic crisis leads to a “contagion of
RG: Inasmuch as they desire the same thing, the members of the group become antagonists, in pairs, in triangles, in polygons, in whatever configurations you can imagine. The contagion signifies that some of them are going to abandon...
Chapter 4. The Bible
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MT: We’re making our way toward the great historical rupture, the creation
of History itself, that you see the word of Christ as opening up. But don’t you
think it would be a good idea to stop and talk about the Bible?
RG: Yes. One senses that the Bible is heading toward Revelation properly speaking in the New Testament.
In the most primitive pagan myths, sacrifice...
Chapter 5. Christ (Orders and Disorders)
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MT: In your view, Christian revelation triggers a process that is global,
worldwide or perhaps even wider. We emerge from the lie, from the mythical
shadow, and are reborn under the sun of truth. It’s the beginning of History
as such, and it’s not just one more myth.
RG: From a Christian point of view, it could be said that, in a sense, Creation starts up again. Creation damaged by...
Chapter 6. A Return to Imitation
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MT: Let’s go back over the imitation that Plato saw everywhere, except where
its role was most important: in acquisitive behaviors, in the competition of
RG: Mimesis is the Greek word for imitation. Dance is the most mimetic of all the arts, and indeed it’s easy to see its relationship with contagion, the collective trance; we know of its role in sacrifices. In the Gospels...
Chapter 7. Science
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MT: The consensus is that Christianity has never ceased to lag behind on the question of scientific development, to oppose the new worldviews attached to theories of physics such as Galileo’s. But in truth, you say, at a deeper level, it is really Christianity that makes science possible by desacralizing the real, by freeing people from magical causalities. Once we stop seeing storms as...
Chapter 8. The One and the Many
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MT: Is the uniformization of the world a mandatory ransom for progress,
material progress on the one hand and progress of conscience and solidarity
on the other? Are we heading toward a single civilization?
RG: I think so. The closure of societies is linked to “scapegoat” type practices. To close is always to define an outside and an inside by means of exclusions and...
Chapter 9. Democracy
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RG: I like Churchill’s quote: it’s “the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.”
MT: Democracy is not without injustices. Children from affluent families have a much better chance of becoming big businessmen, great artists, or even great thinkers, great advocates for the poor, than do those who are born...
Chapter 10. God, Freedom
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MT: Why was it necessary for Christ to die? Was it the last guiltless sacrifice
before the abandonment of sacrificial systems?
RG: Well, the other previous victims weren’t guilty either. Christ dies because he refuses to submit to the law of violence, he denounces it whenever he speaks, and human beings, by refusing his Revelation, necessarily direct their violence back at...
Chapter 11. Freud, and a Few Others
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RG: What I like about Freud is a certain kind of analysis, a way of writing, and of working with texts. What I don’t like is his fundamental prejudice against culture and against the family: Civilization and Its Discontents, “the Oedipus complex.” What Freud doesn’t see is that social and religious institutions have an essentially protective function. They decrease the risk of conflict. Of...
Chapter 12. A Method, a Life, a Man
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MT: We’ve put a lot of emphasis on the unconscious nature of the mechanisms
and phenomena we’ve been talking about. Which leads me to the
following, rather paradoxical, question: in the end, does it help to reveal
Revelation, to talk about it explicitly as you’re doing?
RG: What do you mean by “does it help”? If religion is the truth, “it helps” more than we can...
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Page Count: 152
Publication Year: 2014
Series Title: Studies in Violence, Mimesis and Culture