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Cage's Loft, New York City: October 21–23, 1991
- Wesleyan University Press
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Cage's Loft, New York City October 21-23, J 99J John Cage and Joan Retallack This conversation begins with an attempt to sketch out a chronology of Cage's involvement with visual art. At the time, Cage said he might forget to include certain things, but we agreed we wouldn't worry because we could fill them in later when we went over the transcript. Cage died before we had a chance to do this. As it happened, we soon turned away from a historical recounting anyway. That was clearly not Cage's preferred mode of conversation. —JR M O N D A Y , OCTOBER 21 JR: I thought we might start by talking about the history of your involvement with making visual art... actually doing this yourself. jc: Before I decided to devote myself to music, and I promised Schoenberg that I would devote my life to music, I had painted and I had been writing music— the two at once. jR: When was that? How old were you? jc: That was in the late twenties and early thirties, and was the effect of the encounter with modern music and modern art in Paris. But at first, without a teacher, I began with architecture. When I left California and went to France I became fascinated by the Gothic architecture I saw in Paris. I was very impressed by it, and my interest only went to modern architecture because of a kick in the seat of my pants by Jose Pijoan, who had been a teacher at Pomona where I had gone to college. I had dropped out after two years, preferringtravel to continuing at college. But I happened to run into Pijoan in Paris. JR: When you say Gothic architecture, I associate that with churches and cathedrals , jc: Yes. JR: And that was your interest? jc: Yes, I was studying it because I had been impressed with all the churches in that style that I saw. But instead of continuing to walk around Paris looking at the churches, I went to the Bibliotheque Mazarin. And I studied flamboyant Gothic architecture for a solid month. I was there early in the morning when rhey opened, and I didn't leave until they closed the doors. I became a specialist 83 in flamboyant Gothic architecture! (laughter) But because of the kick that Jose Pijoan gave me I abandoned it for modernism. Do you know his name? JR: No, I don't. jc: Jose Pijoan was at that time involved in something to do with current events in art for the League of Nations when they were still in Switzerland. He was a fascinating man. And he introduced me to a modern architect whose name was [Erno] Goldfinger. And Goldfinger—ironically, I think, is the proper word—put me to work drawing Greek columns, (laughter) ] R: Ironic columns, (laughter) What sort of modern architect was he if he had you rendering Greekcolumns? jc: Oh no, he wasvery modern.What he was actually doing was not himself designing houses, but redesigning apartments, turning old apartments into modern apartments —no matter what their previous condition. He fixed them up so that they looked modern. JR: So where were the Greek columns? jc: They were nowhere. They were simply something for me to do. (laughter) I drew Ionic and Doric and Corinthian columns. And then he would interrupt my labors (laughter) and send me out to actually measure an apartment that he was going to alter. I would measure it and make a drawing of it. JR: Did he give a reason for setting you to draw Greek columns? jc: No, no. That was simply part of my involvement with architecture. But one day he was talking to some girlfriends, and I overhead him say that to become an architect you must devote your life to architecture, and I immediately—I didn't interrupt him immediately—but the next time I talked to him I said, I have to give up architecture because I'm interested in so many other things.1 (laughs) And so I did. I left that office and I — JR: When was that? Do you remember the date? jc: It was in the late twenties. jR: Who were the artistswhose work you were enjoying in Paris? jc: There was a pianist, John Kirkpatrick, or was it Ralph? There were two Kirkpatricks, one isJohn and the other Ralph, jR: I associate Ralph mainly with the harpsichord. jc: Yes. So it's...