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suu kyi: A lot of the roads, bridges, railways, and such are built through the use of forced labor, and that is causing the people great su¤ering. What we put into this in the form of human su¤ering is not worth what comes out of it. I think corporations should give more attention to this su¤ering and should wait to invest until there is a responsible government in Burma. I do not think it is a good idea to separate economics from politics; in fact, I do not think economics can be separated from politics. It’s quite understandable that many business concerns think only about their own proWts. It’s up to the public to put as much pressure as it can on these companies, through shareholder resolutions and public actions. It’s good to know that the people of di¤erent countries are really concerned and involved in the movement to help Burma. I think in some ways it’s better to have the people of the world on your side than the governments of the world. q: What do you tell people when they get discouraged? suu kyi: We are conWdent that our cause will prevail, because that is what the great majority of the people in Burma want. We all want justice and human rights. Since what we want will beneWt all the people in Burma, our cause is bound to win. And for those who get discouraged, I would say they should search their own hearts. I have a strong belief that those working for the truth will never lose. SacriWcing for the truth means victory. The National League for Democracy has promised the people that we will continue working for their beneWt, knowing that we will have to sacriWce and there will be many diªculties. Our promise to them will never be broken. And we will not use any methods that require the people to take risks. If there is something to sacriWce for, we will take the risks. That is why our League has been formed. We will sacriWce ourselves at the forefront, but we will also need the goodwill, trust, and strong determination of the people. —Leslie Kean is a journalist in San Francisco. Dennis Bernstein is an investigative reporter, human rights activist, poet, and radio host for KPFA in Berkeley, California. An Interview with Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Prize Winner Zia Jaffrey february 1998 q: Can you speak a little about the concept of ubuntu, which is the goal of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. tutu: The Act says that the thing you’re striving after should be ubuntu rather than revenge. It comes from the root [of a Zulu-Xhosa word], which means a “person.” So it is the essence of being a person. And in our experience, in our understanding, Ja¤rey / Interview with Desmond Tutu 309 a person is a person through other persons. You can’t be a solitary human being. It’s all linked. We have this communal sense, and because of this deep sense of community, the harmony of the group is a prime attribute. And so you realize, in this worldview, that anything that undermines the harmony is to be avoided as much as possible. And anger and jealousy and revenge are particularly corrosive, so you try and do everything to try and enhance the humanity of the other, because in that process, you enhance your own, since you are bound up with each other. q: What has been the most surprising thing you’ve observed during the Truth and Reconciliation hearings, and what has been the most shocking? tutu: The most surprising is to discover the central role that women played in our struggle. In a very real sense, without women, we would not have had our liberation . You’ll say I’m saying the obvious, but I think women are quite extraordinary— their resilience. You saw Mrs. Seipei. Her son was killed. And to hear the gruesome way in which they killed him. And there she can walk across and go kiss Winnie, who is alleged to have given orders for the killing of her son, and who has been convicted of abducting her son. That is one of the most extraordinary things that I think has come out of this. Then you say, “What are the worst things?” It’s in imagining that we thought we knew how awful things were, and then we discover they were...

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